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	<title>Comments on: McCain campaign&#8217;s taxing lie about Obama&#8217;s energy plans</title>
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	<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 14:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/#comment-162</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liecount.com/?p=262#comment-162</guid>
		<description>The opening line of this entry quotes the McCain ad as claiming 'Obama and Biden voted to raise taxes on working American making just $42,000'.  But you then point out that the capital gains tax only rises 'For families with incomes above $250k'.  So why isn't the opening line a straight-out lie?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The opening line of this entry quotes the McCain ad as claiming &#8216;Obama and Biden voted to raise taxes on working American making just $42,000&#8242;.  But you then point out that the capital gains tax only rises &#8216;For families with incomes above $250k&#8217;.  So why isn&#8217;t the opening line a straight-out lie?</p>
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		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liecount.com/?p=262#comment-156</guid>
		<description>You're right that the focus here was wether or not it was a deliberate lie, but I think a lot of the "gotcha" stuff is immaterial  and the important part is the underlying meaning and motive. Tax incentives for energy companies is not "higher taxes on your electricity bills" except in a distorted view of reality. More importantly, McCain is attempting to twist Obama's energy plan into tax fear-mongering. 

McCain has a 15-year record of voting against energy efficiency, environmental protection, and any attempt to develop or produce alternative energy. Now in the face of a climate crisis and an energy quagmire, he has the gall to distort and demonize the candidate for attempting to fix the mess McCain helped create?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right that the focus here was wether or not it was a deliberate lie, but I think a lot of the &#8220;gotcha&#8221; stuff is immaterial  and the important part is the underlying meaning and motive. Tax incentives for energy companies is not &#8220;higher taxes on your electricity bills&#8221; except in a distorted view of reality. More importantly, McCain is attempting to twist Obama&#8217;s energy plan into tax fear-mongering. </p>
<p>McCain has a 15-year record of voting against energy efficiency, environmental protection, and any attempt to develop or produce alternative energy. Now in the face of a climate crisis and an energy quagmire, he has the gall to distort and demonize the candidate for attempting to fix the mess McCain helped create?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Morris</title>
		<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/#comment-152</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liecount.com/?p=262#comment-152</guid>
		<description>I thought the topic in question was whether or not an outright "lie" was told.  I didn't argue the merits of such a "tax".  I only stated that John McCain may have technically lied characterizing Obama's "dirty energy tax" as a tax on electric bills.  However, he may have been more immediately accurate about the effects such a tax would have on the average energy consumer.

As to whether or not higher taxes guarantee the invention of alternative new energy sources, the Europeans have exacted very high taxes on fuel for decades and they are still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.  They do have much more energy efficient cars and they do make much more use of nuclear power (a controversial topic by itself), but they still haven't invented any *new* sources of energy.  

But, you may be right overall.  Most of the fundamental advances in technology over the past 500 years have occurred as the result of a synthesis of efforts from all major international players.  If the US sits this out, we could slow possible achievement in this area to the detriment of everyone else.  

Basically, neither of us really knows for sure.  We don't have any kind of comparative evidence that states research and development becomes more successful because gasoline is $5/gallon and our monthly electric bills go up a certain percentage.  It's also unfair to characterize a tax-increase as debilitating.  Again, using available comparative data from Europe, they have high taxes on energy and still manage to do well economically (present-day banking disasters notwithstanding).

All in all, I just can't really say with any kind of certainty whether raising or lowering taxes either causes or eliminates more problems in the long run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the topic in question was whether or not an outright &#8220;lie&#8221; was told.  I didn&#8217;t argue the merits of such a &#8220;tax&#8221;.  I only stated that John McCain may have technically lied characterizing Obama&#8217;s &#8220;dirty energy tax&#8221; as a tax on electric bills.  However, he may have been more immediately accurate about the effects such a tax would have on the average energy consumer.</p>
<p>As to whether or not higher taxes guarantee the invention of alternative new energy sources, the Europeans have exacted very high taxes on fuel for decades and they are still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.  They do have much more energy efficient cars and they do make much more use of nuclear power (a controversial topic by itself), but they still haven&#8217;t invented any *new* sources of energy.  </p>
<p>But, you may be right overall.  Most of the fundamental advances in technology over the past 500 years have occurred as the result of a synthesis of efforts from all major international players.  If the US sits this out, we could slow possible achievement in this area to the detriment of everyone else.  </p>
<p>Basically, neither of us really knows for sure.  We don&#8217;t have any kind of comparative evidence that states research and development becomes more successful because gasoline is $5/gallon and our monthly electric bills go up a certain percentage.  It&#8217;s also unfair to characterize a tax-increase as debilitating.  Again, using available comparative data from Europe, they have high taxes on energy and still manage to do well economically (present-day banking disasters notwithstanding).</p>
<p>All in all, I just can&#8217;t really say with any kind of certainty whether raising or lowering taxes either causes or eliminates more problems in the long run.</p>
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		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liecount.com/?p=262#comment-151</guid>
		<description>Taxing energy producers for "dirty" energy may very well increase costs for consumers, but it's the most effective way for government to influence the direction of private business. Big business has shown that without regulation it will take the course of most profit and least resistance, and we obviously cannot place our goals of clean and independent energy in the hands of the companies who stand to make the most money from squelching new alternatives.

Our government must influence the energy business in the language of money. Even at the consumer level if we had instituted a $.25 - 1$/gallon at-the-pump tax 8 years ago like many people we're advocating, we could be billions of dollars into research and development of cleaner, cheaper, and OPEC-free sources of energy. Instead we've had the oil companies making obscene amounts of money hiring well-connected lobbyists to whisper in the ears of the men and women supposed to representing OUR interests.

McCain has shown his true colors by stumping for offshore drilling with lax oversight, which will do nothing for the consumer or the price at the pump and everything for the oil companies to act in their own interest by maintaining the environment that has given them the billions upon billions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taxing energy producers for &#8220;dirty&#8221; energy may very well increase costs for consumers, but it&#8217;s the most effective way for government to influence the direction of private business. Big business has shown that without regulation it will take the course of most profit and least resistance, and we obviously cannot place our goals of clean and independent energy in the hands of the companies who stand to make the most money from squelching new alternatives.</p>
<p>Our government must influence the energy business in the language of money. Even at the consumer level if we had instituted a $.25 - 1$/gallon at-the-pump tax 8 years ago like many people we&#8217;re advocating, we could be billions of dollars into research and development of cleaner, cheaper, and OPEC-free sources of energy. Instead we&#8217;ve had the oil companies making obscene amounts of money hiring well-connected lobbyists to whisper in the ears of the men and women supposed to representing OUR interests.</p>
<p>McCain has shown his true colors by stumping for offshore drilling with lax oversight, which will do nothing for the consumer or the price at the pump and everything for the oil companies to act in their own interest by maintaining the environment that has given them the billions upon billions.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Morris</title>
		<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/#comment-149</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liecount.com/?p=262#comment-149</guid>
		<description>I think that taxing energy producers *will* result in higher prices for consumers as energy producers pass the cost along to the purchasing public.  Whereas I agree that Obama did not explicitly support a "tax" on electric bills, taxing energy producers does increase the retail cost of energy that we ultimately pay.  Since he wants to tax "dirty energy" and none of us has a choice about whether or not our electricity comes from a "dirty" source, we can expect higher energy bills if our local producer uses coal to generate electricity.

Again, I agree with your sticking to a formal definition of a lie; this allows for objective classification and should help determine inaccuracies in speeches given by candidates.  However, the current definition does not leave a lot of room for "rehetorical expedience" which may not be "technically" accurate, but is more "true" than the technical definition.  It's hard to throw the multi-step logic that I just outlined into a speech or a "town hall" question-and-answer session.  Sometimes, it really is more expedient and "true" to say "tax" when it comes to paying for something you need, even though it may be technically false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that taxing energy producers *will* result in higher prices for consumers as energy producers pass the cost along to the purchasing public.  Whereas I agree that Obama did not explicitly support a &#8220;tax&#8221; on electric bills, taxing energy producers does increase the retail cost of energy that we ultimately pay.  Since he wants to tax &#8220;dirty energy&#8221; and none of us has a choice about whether or not our electricity comes from a &#8220;dirty&#8221; source, we can expect higher energy bills if our local producer uses coal to generate electricity.</p>
<p>Again, I agree with your sticking to a formal definition of a lie; this allows for objective classification and should help determine inaccuracies in speeches given by candidates.  However, the current definition does not leave a lot of room for &#8220;rehetorical expedience&#8221; which may not be &#8220;technically&#8221; accurate, but is more &#8220;true&#8221; than the technical definition.  It&#8217;s hard to throw the multi-step logic that I just outlined into a speech or a &#8220;town hall&#8221; question-and-answer session.  Sometimes, it really is more expedient and &#8220;true&#8221; to say &#8220;tax&#8221; when it comes to paying for something you need, even though it may be technically false.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Centofante</title>
		<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Centofante</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liecount.com/?p=262#comment-147</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments, Linda. Seemingly or not, we don't deliberately focus more attention on one candidate or another - at least in the way you suggest. Rather, we take each case as it comes in, either by user submissions or by general news reporting that we run across. We have actually been trying to offset any media bias by investigating the party with a lower score more heavily. What you see is what we've found. 

It is a fair critique to suggest that lie designates intention, and there is always the possibility that their intentions are good and it's an honest mistake. If it is, and they correct it, we gladly remove the lie designation. It's notable that corrections are surprisingly very few to date, even when generally agreed upon as not true.

More about what is considered a lie here:
http://liecount.com/what-is-a-lie/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, Linda. Seemingly or not, we don&#8217;t deliberately focus more attention on one candidate or another - at least in the way you suggest. Rather, we take each case as it comes in, either by user submissions or by general news reporting that we run across. We have actually been trying to offset any media bias by investigating the party with a lower score more heavily. What you see is what we&#8217;ve found. </p>
<p>It is a fair critique to suggest that lie designates intention, and there is always the possibility that their intentions are good and it&#8217;s an honest mistake. If it is, and they correct it, we gladly remove the lie designation. It&#8217;s notable that corrections are surprisingly very few to date, even when generally agreed upon as not true.</p>
<p>More about what is considered a lie here:<br />
<a href="http://liecount.com/what-is-a-lie/" rel="nofollow">http://liecount.com/what-is-a-lie/</a></p>
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		<title>By: linda</title>
		<link>http://liecount.com/2008/09/21/mccain-campaigns-taxing-lie-about-obamas-energy-plans/#comment-143</link>
		<dc:creator>linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liecount.com/?p=262#comment-143</guid>
		<description>i dont know how to contact you other than to leave a comment. while i applaud your efforts to bring truth to this campaign, i think it is unfair to compare mccain vs. obama in number of lies. first, i believe both candidates are guilty of misrepresenting the truth or taking it out of context, which is wrong in of itself. but a lie indicates intent and i dont believe either mccain or obama truly wants to lie. second, there are websites on both sides that list so called lie after lie after lie ad nauseum. on your website, it seems to be skewed in the direction of which candidate you focus on for the day. i could play perpetual gotcha  ping pong and never stop until november 4 if i chose to do so. if you are partisan towards one candidate, then focus on bringing to light the errors of the other candidate. otherwise, it would seem fairer to just rotate the findings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i dont know how to contact you other than to leave a comment. while i applaud your efforts to bring truth to this campaign, i think it is unfair to compare mccain vs. obama in number of lies. first, i believe both candidates are guilty of misrepresenting the truth or taking it out of context, which is wrong in of itself. but a lie indicates intent and i dont believe either mccain or obama truly wants to lie. second, there are websites on both sides that list so called lie after lie after lie ad nauseum. on your website, it seems to be skewed in the direction of which candidate you focus on for the day. i could play perpetual gotcha  ping pong and never stop until november 4 if i chose to do so. if you are partisan towards one candidate, then focus on bringing to light the errors of the other candidate. otherwise, it would seem fairer to just rotate the findings.</p>
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